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 Post subject: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:12 pm 
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I know i am most likely out of my mind for even offering this .. < i dont really mean that so dont take it serious>

we here at the FLC have always done our best to get along with the entire community ,, and while we have failed on occasion .. we have always done our best to support any and all community sites and projects..

the Rift in the freelancer Communities has Imo gone on too long and i know there are more than a few players and modders that agree with me .. as more and more servers decide to shut down and the player base shrinks. The summer Lull in online gaming is the perfect time imo to have this conversation.

I know there have been attempts in the past on voice and in chat to smooth out the issues between both communities and those attempts have always Failed..The Latest round of back and forth from both sites staff i saw today is what prompted this invitation.

We can provide a Moderated Forum for a Frank discussion of the issues each has with the other and a hope that all issues can be put to bed for good and you can Mend some fences that have needed work for quite some time.. in order for this to work both sides would have to be willing to come into it with forgivness in their hearts.

Now i know we most likely wont be taken up on this because the wounds are old and have never healed... But we here at the FLC have a good relationship with both TLR and the TSP so we make this offer to be the third neutral party and the voice of reason if needed in a discussion to at last put this rift to bed for the good of a dwindling community.

i think we have all seen that over the past few years all of our Community sites have been able to exist and none have hurt the others existence, it has always been our stance that the more information locations there are the better it is for the community. we have all done our part to be there for the players and the modders and we have all promoted values like Fair play and Free and friendly advice to all that need it.


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The word "community" is derived from the Old French communité which is derived from the Latin communitas (cum, "with/together" + munus, "gift"), a broad term for fellowship or organized society.[2]

Since the advent of the Internet, the concept of community no longer has geographical limitations, as people can now virtually gather in an online community and share common interests regardless of physical location.



I prefer that only the Staff From both sites and the Staff from here at the FLC respond in this thread. Community members feel free to follow the conversation but please refrain form posting in this discussion. i could Even move this to our Admin area and give all parties access if they dont already have it if you prefer to do this in private. We are reaching out to you both and extending a hand in friendship.. we hope you can both do the same and we can resolve this once and for all.

As i said i dont expect this to move forward because of the history involved but i thought we would offer in the spirit of community. you all know me and i hope over the years i have earned some measure of respect from both communities.. I promise to remain neutral in the discussion and to moderate it fairly.

This is an open invitation

either one of the two mentioned sites stafff should feel free to start the conversation with Hello.

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Tue Jun 07, 2011 8:14 pm 
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i will remove Any and all Spam.

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 1:28 am 
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I was thinking about commenting here or not. As a former TLR admin from the Mental Chaos days (best forgotten imho), it still surprises me after all these years how little has changed, apart from growing older and i'd like to think a little wiser.

I find the recent events regarding some of the posts on TLR, TSP and various replies by both sides involved "staggering" in their childish content. I have a right to say this as i've been around long enough and having been involved with TLR and it's demise, in which i had a major part to play in it's removal from the Microsoft website, i feel commenting on this whole drama is appropiate.

Before someone asks, i'll clarify the 'removal from the Microsoft website' comment. When Mental Chaos ran TLR, there was a lot of debate about the database from the old site, who had it, how to get it back up and so on, plus his utter hatred of the Starport and various people involved, who had feet in both camps at the time. Due to his infantile state of mind, Mental Chaos in a fit of pique, posted his disapproval of any connection with The Starport (TSP), by posting his feelings in a webpage redirect to LR and if anyone wished to continue onward to LR, you were then redirected to a page displaying porn.

At this point i got the hump and contacted Microsoft directly and had them remove LR from the Freelancer webpage links section for what i felt were obvious reasons, plenty of kids went to LR and the last thing they need to see is a porn link when trying to access the site. By this time LR had sunk so low i didn't want to be involved with it and after that little episode i washed my hands of LR completely and left.

Now during my time on LR, i had a few run-ins with various people discussing various mod issues, namely OP, who i freely admit used to irritate the crap out of me when i first started in FL all those years ago. Now while i'm not defending him in any way as he's perfectly capable of doing that himself, it's surprising how over the last few years we started a dialogue which has led both of us to just simply get on, respect each others work and more importantly, stop bickering at each other. We both simply gave up arguing, and since then we've been fine with each other.

Now if i can do that, i'm sure some of the other guys involved in recent events can also do the same, but sadly that doesn't seem to be the case. Granted the recent comments were started by someone different in an alleged 'joke' post about causing TSP harm, which in itself should have been removed and the offender warned about inciting posts, but hey, i don't have godlike powers anymore except on my own forum lol. That said, what's followed since are the same members on both sites digging up the same old crap from years ago with both sides saying the same old shit. It's BORING guys, not just to me whose been around FL a long time now but totally confusing to that rare beast, the new player coming in and landing in the middle of all this.

I honestly don't think a resolution will be reached because both sides are so entrenched in their beliefs that neither will give an inch and i personally think this is really sad as egos are overtaking the common good. If one offers a truce, the other looks for an ulterior motive. If one doesn't budge the other accuses them of being unyielding and so on. Drives me nuts tbh which is why i don't post nearly as much as i used to and stick to mod related topics only due to some of the arrogance shown by certain senior members on TSP.

So pretty please with little chocolate flaky bits on top, enough is enough and can we try and settle this amicably without all the old wounds being re-opened? This means TSP swallowing their pride, which they really need to as they are not so innocent here either, and OP laying off with the legal threats and other proposed courses of action, and having a quiet conversation like ADULTS and trying to sort all this out once and for all? Let's not forget this is the future of a GAME, an 8 yr old obsolete frackin game we're talking about here, nothing more or less, so let's lose the attitudes and fix this.

Oh, and if this post gets me banned at TSP for being honest, guess what, don't give a damn.

Rant over...

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 5:44 am 
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Howdy,

your offer is much appreciated.
Eventhough I doubt that it will not work.

Like Gibbon I played my role at the TLR misery we experienced since 2007. I was admin of the old TLR before all the crap started... offered my help to BP in order to keep that site running and did my job to improve the community.
When MC and Azza took control over it and turned it into a nightmare and threat to the FL community I started to support TSP. I helped people (including its adminstration) there for about 1 year.
Actually I thought I could help every remaining FL community. I supported the FL players with downloads, the modders with tutorials and admins with help on their websites. The FL community sites were added by me to the MS fansite for FL despite the common opinion that this would not be possible during that time. All of that is long forgotten.

Which damage have I caused to the FL community?
I have fought against the TLR admins which started to attack TSP.
This this got myself and my own community in the line of fire. Even other communities with relation to TSP made themself target of such attacks (FLC is not excluded from that).
I made sure to limit AzzAs and Knifes powers just like Gibbon tried to do.
Damaging a FL community never was my intention and at a certain point of time I even prevented the destruction of TLR. The rift between TSP and SWAT appeared right at that time and grew since then.

The rift between TLR and the rest of FL community was deep after 3 years of trouble.
Still, we are today able soo TLR as a friendly community again that helps players and modders. The rift between TLR, SWAT, FLC, DB and other communities is gone.
Half a year ago in october 2010 the problems got resolved. I made the first step to establish peace between the communities again. A step that nobody else was willing to do, and no matter what you think about the former TLR admins that have causes so much troubles in the past... they have responded with reason and trust.
Today TLR is an active Freelancer modding community again with a fairly high amount of visitors and contributers.
Half a year ago people at TSP said this would not be possible and voiced their wish to see TLR gone.

It was also half a year ago right after that I took over TLR that I made an approach and offered to share the resources of TLR with ALL remaining FL communities and run TLR together with them.
Starport was not excluded from that offer, but that offer was turned down.
FLC, Digital Brilliance and various other FL sites have decided to support TLR next to the already existing support from the SWAT Portal. In return the biggest supporters were directly involved in the TLR staff. FLC included.
I did not expect them to work at TLR but its meant to be a way to get them involved and run that place together.

Offering to share the resources and responsibility over TLR, doing public appologizes at TSP, trying to explain misunderstanding, preventing ddos attacks to a large part of the FL community and supporting other FL sites... what else should I do?

Just alone in the past 6 months I made 4 approaches to get the troubles resolved and all of a sudden the next claims appear. I am getting tired of it.

Reason: a joke

Right after it appeared I clearly stated TLRs policy regarding such issues. It was written right at the following posts. Still it was taken reason to point the finger again towards us and making claims.
Yet to see that jokes and comments directed against us are fully legit at TSP. It was just a few months ago that a very serious statement at TSP was being excused as "joke" by their admins.
So, what now? How is something like that measured in a different way?
Why are claims against us justified while defending from these claims makes us evil?

At the moment rules and fairplay applies to both sites and we are not just treated like "outlaws" just as stated at the TSP forum... then problems can be resolved. The day that people from TSP admit their mistakes and treat us in an equal way will be the day that we reach our hand a 5th time.

We did admit our mistakes long ago, we appolized but we are not willing to make another mistake and accept third-class treatment.

(And for sure a community like TSP should not make claims about incompetence and lost domains. Mysteriously lost videos, not working news for more than 1 year and an incident where they almost lost their domain just a few weeks ago makes them not really qualified to judge about others. -> sitting in the glasshouse)


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:56 am 
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lol, whatever Op


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:03 pm 
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In case you wonder, better known as "Chips". I won't blow a trumpet, what I will do is state what this thread should be about, but is already derailed by ego's.

Is this a thread whereby people spill what their perspective of the history is? How tedious, especially since everyone has their own perspective, and stating what you think doesn't translate to fact...no matter how hard you hope people believe it. There isn't going to be a "meeting" or "peace" if both sides harp on about what has happened...so it's counter productive.

So don't cry, whine and moan - say whether you wish to resolve issues, or not.

If you wish to resolve things I would suggest you say what is the actual problem for you. Wait - the CURRENT problem.
Leave out this history garbage, or perceived injustices. "they didn't post my video, they didn't pay me respect" etc

Simply state what the actual issue you have is, why you believe it is an issue, and what is the workable solution you propose. This "I have..." - no, just no. What is the issue - personal injustices are irrelevant so don't bother.

Leave the rest of this repeated pathetic public attempts at point scoring behind - it is entirely counter productive, and filled with ego - the exact reason why no attempts to resolve things will ever work. The egos are of paramount importance for some...

So the relevance of my post? Pointing out that so far it's all irrelevant. Get some focus, get on topic, or give it up before starting - because if you can't, you'll be wasting Soupman's time.
My post may be deleted as spam - I'm no admin on either site - but so far it's the only one talking any sense or even contributing in a meaningful manner. Drop the ego's and make an honest attempt or just forever call it quits ;)


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 4:24 pm 
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I will let the post Reamin mike as i dont see it as Spam

heres where im at ... i didnt expect any posts here so im willing to let everyone involved make their statements..

really i was shocked anyone posted... i will keep the haters on all sides at bay so this can move forward.

Great post Gibbon..
i would have liked to have seen a slightly longer Post from w0dk4. Let me rethink the only Staff should post ... if the post isnt hatefull or a bunch of Bla i will let it ride. the call will be mine as to what is garbage.

i am the moderator after all ... :D

All thats really needed here is a Mutal point of Starting a Peace between you guys.. and really how hard is it to just agree to diagree and move on. alot of the trouble that may or may not have been started by folks that arent even around anymore is not worth beating into the ground imo.

ok theres the the member of TLR that was banned for Posting Links to topics on TSP .. that could of been handled with a single ban if it was out of line.... the others Op claimed were because they all showed up at once and he was afraid of some Spam .... im sure those bans can easily be removed if there is no reason for them .. was it an over reaction ? prob but not in Ops mind at the time.

also along those lines im Sure banning the word TSP at TLR can be resolved in a mouse click or two .. Since in Ops mind i suppose it was put in place after the link was posted to avoid Spam as well.

We all know whats gone on in the past and theres no reason go over it again from this point forward is there ?

The Archive is a point of contention for Op .. honestly Op i wouldnt let it be

TLR carries all of the old data and is supported by Live Admins to anwser questions ... if i were looking for anwsers i would go where the people are that can help me ... not an archive.

TSP had issues with Front page news ... hey i can understand that

I have done enough site coding to understand Stuff just dont work sometimes ... it Did effect a news item i posted there for the underverse. the Video link was not broken the item just never made it to the front page. i reported it at the time to an admin,, im not sure which. and then i moved on and posted it Everywhere else i planned on that Day ,, our Mod DB page TLR FLC Etc...

I hold no grudge over the failure of some software.. and dont belive anyone else should.

All it really takes to move forward is to say its all good and move on .. When visiting each others sites try to Show the same respect you expect to get on yours ... Step on members if they decide to flame the person visiting your site the same as i would here if someone came in ranting about TLR or TSP staff.

no one is saying TLR must Run the TSPs Header link bar or that TSP should also carry Ops bar.

the Server ring we host was added to the TSP when discussion there came up about doing one .. we told em we had one running and they added it .. it was that easy. the Sites listed in the alliance on our front page are there because they offer something to players and modders ... did anyone ask to be put there? No i just added every site i could think of that was active and i thought players and modders would both find something they need.

if you really need to Vent and get something off your chest .. then by all means vent

But preface it by saying look at the end of the day .. i dont think we will work together but we can certainly get along.

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 6:05 pm 
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No banning them was not an over reaction... it was a logical decision.
You tell me to ban a person because he was linking to TSP instead of censoring would be better.
Well fortunatly i run TLR by its rules and actually links are no reason for a ban.

Now you ask me to unban them... allow linking to TSP again and give up the stuff that is TLRs property (TLRs history, heart and soul)? Returning the archives was and still is one of the main objectives since I started to rebuild TLR.
What else do i need to have to do... forget all the attacks we received? let them break more rules? let them insult more of our members by calling them "fanatics" "outlaws" or what ever they have in mind? accept lousy excuses such as "mysteriously disappeared stuff"?

Why in gods name should I actually do that?
Give them everything and bow myself for them just to receive.... nothing.
I had the impression this thread was to resolve stuff but it looks like it is pretty one sided. There is not even the slightest benefit for us. We pay the price for everything. Inacceptable. We are not going to give away our rights for a one sided peace.

If resolving means what ive seen so far then this discussion is over for me.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:15 pm 
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That's why you are supposed to say what the issue is Op - without your usual smear campaign. Just list down what is required to resolve it without all this excessive descriptive monologue of history about injustice.

Right now your posts show no desire to resolve anything - just to utilise Soupman's offer as another opportunity to smear more propaganda against TSP. How refreshing.

So step away from the ego, just list the critical issues and the reasons why they are critical - and how you wish them resolved. Forget lifting bans for now - state what you wish (keep it reasonable obviously) and your reasons why.

How about it? :)

oh, by the way - you don't legally own any database. TLR.org != TLR.com, there was no sale of domain or all the material along with it either. There are just people who were given copies of the database for whatever reason, without stipulations or conditions. So please keep that in mind before claiming anything is rightfully TLR property :) You have no legal, or moral, basis for any such claim :) I think it's important to mention this so that any "conditions" don't have the usual legal threats or claims along with them...


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:29 pm 
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What do you do actually here?
You blamed me at TSP for defending just to go to TLR and doing exactly the same there. And now you have the nerves to tell me what I have to do?

I am not discussing with people that think they can blame others and then think the same judgement does not count for themselves. That is something you can put on your list.

Soup, I am out of here.
I am not discussing anything under such conditions.


Last edited by SWAT_OP-R8R on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:32 pm 
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Quote:
i would have liked to have seen a slightly longer Post from w0dk4. Let me rethink the only Staff should post ... if the post isnt hatefull or a bunch of Bla i will let it ride. the call will be mine as to what is garbage.


I see that it was garbage and a troll-like post and I excuse for that.

At the same time, regarding Op's post, I see no ground on where we can meet. I won't discuss the detailed reasoning because it's just history ranting.

At this point, I'd also like to thank you for taking the initiative to bring both sides together. From our point of view, we've never done anything wrong. Contrary to Op's lies, we never "attacked" TLR or deleted links or movies. This is all garbage and shouldnt be discussed here. Therefore, I respectfully say that at this point, there is no resolution possible.

Thanks,
w0dk4


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:29 pm 
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Quote:
w0dk4 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:32 pm


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Soup, I am out of here.
I am not discussing anything under such conditions.


Last edited by SWAT_OP-R8R on Wed Jun 08, 2011 7:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.


Nice edit, Op.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:44 pm 
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Well I'm rather sorry to be apparently too late for those peace talks. I'm not in the mind for a long winded post so I'll go straight to the point.

I don't really know what there is to do here. Soup, I'm thankful for your attempt at resolving the matter, but I can honestly say that I have nothing against TLR or OP specifically, the only thing that irks me about the entire thing is how I and the rest of the TSP staff is constantly getting accused of things. I'm sorry that this is the case, but shit sometimes happens. We've already covered each and every one of the cases and my mind is at peace with the explanations we have given. Unfortunately, those explanations do not satisfy OP or he would not still be bringing them back up again. Therefore, I'm at a loss as to what exactly should be the next step.

I don't really care that he banned me from TLR without my having done anything. He can unban me if he so desires, it would be a nice gesture, but I'm not holding it against him. I don't think I would post all that much on there in any case as my hands are already full following TSP and Freeworlds. I can't speak for the other staff members but I don't think they're really irked that much either. Likewise, the censoring is childish in my eyes but if that's how he wants to roll so be it. I could keep going but as I've said we've already covered all of this.

Essentially, I give up. I don't see what can be done here. I will not bow to OP's demands to remove the database or say that yes, we've purposefully blocked Crossfire news or brought down their videos or censored TLR or whatever because we have not. There's no other way around that and I won't lie to give him satisfaction. Those matters could've been solved by a quick exchange of PMs asking what was up, but apparently that was out of the question.

So once against, thanks Soup, but that's how I see things here.

FF


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 8:47 pm 
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Yep, I stand behind FF's post 100%. Couldn't have said it any better myself.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Wed Jun 08, 2011 10:21 pm 
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Well as i said i didnt expect any response here in the first place .. im glad some posts were made.

I thank you all for Endulging me and making an effort even though i was pretty sure it would be fruitless.

me being an intrested third party looking at this from the outside and trying to be objective i have come to this conclusion .. There are hurt feelings that for one reason or another folks just cant move past .. we all knew this coming in.

Honestly Op .. i was not asking you or the staff from TSP to give anything up. i didnt think any major effort needed to be made by either side .. Just to agree to treat each other with a little more respect and make sure your members do the same from this point forward .. we would always extend this same courtesy to you all here at the FLC.

the Stuff that has happened in the past hurt some feelings ... ok thats fine. i think everyone could move past that.. standing outside this looking in it appears that the Animosity is over the data base and who has the right to use it. well thats out of my range of knowledge because we came to the freelancer party late as TLR was ending its historic run and havens was shutting down.. that brought the birth of the FLC and the TSP as i recall.

So i cant comment on who gave it to who or whatever.

i didnt expect either side to say sorry here for anything that has happened .. only to say from this post forward we agree to perhaps treat each other with a little more respect..and make sure as best we can our communities do the same.. the past is the past.

I remember there were those that saw us here as a threat .. years later its easy to see we were no threat. just a dedicated group that doesnt mind lending a hand and as of today we all appear to be doing that to the best of our ability.

it was worth a shot and at least let you know that as far as the FLC is concerned we Back any and all sites that support the community either on their own or all of us together. if you ever need a place to discuss this with each other without having to do it in the others house just let me know and we will make ourselves avail.

Thanks to all for your time.

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