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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:19 am 
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Thank you soup for your time and your try.
It is correct that statements like something did misteriously disappear or claims against me, my sites or my members do not satisfy me. Claims and accusations went in both ways, I have admitted that several times in the past, even apologized for some stuff. I am still waiting for the day that the other side decides to admits its own mistakes and wrong claims against us.

Mentioning that I would not even have cared to visit TSP and post there if there wouldnt be threads accusing us of something that we have not done... well nobody of us ever would have went to TSP if such threads with claims against us would not rise out of the dark every few weeks. Does this happen on our communities? I dont think so.
Aside from going there when being accused we have stayed away from them for a long time and have not brought up such claims on our sites (with one exception that was posted 2 days ago as reaction).

No claims against us at TSP = no troubles for them in return
THAT would be a start.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:46 am 
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I'd like to know those mistakes and wrong claims, as you said, since so far I've seen nothing but hand waving. I know you love making lists, so give us a big fat one with everything you hold against us so that we can get started on something.

Obviously, Soup said we should put the past behind us, so I'm not sure that's constructive.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 4:07 pm 
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Well if im being asked i would say no lists

the past really is the past ... and it doesnt matter to me where a post came up Claiming something or abusing someone ... even if it was directed at us here at FLC ..

Honestly i think the very best way to move ahead is just to say ok .. we will do our best to treat each other with some more respect.. and make sure our community members do the same.

This alone would be a huge step forward dont you think ?

I dont think much will come from the data base argument but if the above could be followed by all the communities involved .. and i mean us here as well .. i agree to that right now. it would at least show the players and modders we respect each other and will defend each others communities..

thats not such a big step is it ?
its one little step to bring the communities a little closer together and its So easy ... just say you agree with me on that point and we will have a pact of sorts.

lets leave anything of the past out of new posts .. i think everyone vented enough in the previous posts. Im willing to talk as long as you guys are and when its done this thread will be locked so the haters on all sides cant come in with a bunch of spam.

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 5:36 pm 
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I'm fine with that, Soup. I'm looking forward to not having to fight anymore, it's getting very tiring.

Why yes, we're sorry that the articles didn't work. w0dk4 believes he found the problem (yes, Xoops sucks terribly, never use it if you want to keep your sanity), so hopefully this won't be an issue anymore. As for the video, we're also terribly sorry something happened to it. If OP or Huor reads this, just add it again and we'll put it up ASAP.

TLR forumgoers are also welcome to come to TSP. We hope our members can also help TLR prosper.

What else do I need to do to show my good faith? I'm open to suggestions.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 7:19 pm 
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I think thats more than an olive branch FF and im happy to see it ...

Its a step and sometimes all it takes is a step...

Look i know TLR and TSP are never going to hold hands so to speak and walk into a sunset together lol ... not as long as the Data base issue is out there and thats Fine ... because i dont see either side budging on that and i dont think they ever will.

Just to know that if a member of ours or your Site or the TLR if Op agrees will never be allowed to openly accuse, bash or tear down another Staff member from any of the other community sites ... im not saying anyone did

its just good to know that Each sites staff might hold enough .. ok a little ok a Smidge more respect for each other than they did yesterday and would show that respect in the event of a .. hey those guys suck moment posted by some spammer on their sites.

I for one am Quite happy to See FF extend the hand of Friendsh Tolerance ya thats better... It really is easy. ok maybe it wasnt Easy for FF but he did it and that shows hes for it ... and has earned even more of my respect if thats possible for being big enough to at least take a step.

So How about it Op ? .. i would say FF Agreed with my point on mutual respect with his post.

So how about you ? its Easy ... just say Im in.

And we can at last say 3 of the community sites for freelancer have a mutual respect for each other... there will still be issues of course and we all know that isnt going to change over night if ever. but a cease fire is better than a war any day of the week.

Come on Op Show em what your made of ... and type im in .

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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Thu Jun 09, 2011 9:50 pm 
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Personally, I'd like to see one thing change in particular.

Stop taking any reference to a comment made by an individual (not staff) from either site against anything by another individual (not staff) of another site to become a "us vs them" situation.

This has repeatedly occurred. It is wrong to say that a few people criticising one member's statement or opinion is an attack by one site upon another. It really really isn't, and labelling it as such is utterly absurd - let alone representing it as such to entire communities. I think a lot of people are tired of seeing this happen - and it is definitely an issue that keeps occurring.

I think without this occurring, a list of issues would be very very small indeed.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:22 am 
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The offers are interesting and appreciated. But in order to resolve anything shouldn't we talk about the real issues?

I am personally willing to let drop the issues that happened in the past.
Still i dont think that this goes far enough.

1. Soup you have mentioned the database.
The database was an issue for both sides. It came from the old TLR. The way it was handed to TSP is not known to me and actually it is not important. We all can clearly agree that the previous TLR admins back to the year 2007 were absolutly incompetent and couldnt make use of the old TLR backups. Now I am the next owner of TLR and carelessly of domain extension this is still TLR (given from one owner to the next). I am having just along 3 domains for the SWAT Portal... loosing one does not make me loose ownership of the site. Next to that I am also owner of one starport domain which does not make me owner of Starport either (that domain is unused and can be redirected to TSP if wished).
I clearly can understand that TSP does not wish to loose the database content. If they give it away or take it down and something happens at TLR then the data would be lost or it would require much work to restore it. IF that are the worries then I can understand them (eventhough TLR and SWAT exist much longer than any other FL community which probably speaks for us).

I took over TLR with the task to rebuild it. That included to restore all the old content (it was one of the conditions for TLRs future). In the past years TSP could make good use of their archives in order to create much new content. A chance that TLR never really had.
Today we are the situation that we are getting asked to allow linking to TSP (which generally would be ok) but we would never receive any linking back to TLR as 95% of our forum content can be found at TSP in form of the FL archives. And instead of linking from TSP to TLR the linking happens just to the archives at TSP. No linking to TLR at all....a fair deal looks different.
I am not sure if you can understand that point but actually TLR looses in every way if that situation remains.
It makes no sense linking to TSP if the only thing we can achieve is loosing active members just because they find everything we have on our forum + a little bit more at TSP.
Do I ask TSP to hand over the archives to TLR? -> no
Do I ask TSP to completly remove them from the server? -> no
But I ask for a solution for a one sided linking between the communities based on the use of TLR content. I am pretty much open for suggestions.
After changing the TLR forum software the problem with certain users trying to redirect members to other sites should be manageable. So like I said... linking to TSP is no big deal once it is not one sided anymore.

2. The next issue Id like to mention is the community bar.
Our communities meanwhile have agreed to accept that different bars are in use due to different needs. That is ok.
Id like to suggest that the communities do not exclude each other and probably even synchronize their data if needed. My be the major FL communities and I hereby include FLC should probably think about managing and offering their bars together (in my eyes this is possible and would prevent conflicts).

3. The FL communities and their members are equal. None of them is worth less than another. "outlaws" or something like that do not exist (except we would really agree that certain people violate laws or damage the FL community by purpose). There are also no fanatics... there are just people with different oppinions. It would be cool if we all (including our members) could finally accept that.

4. In order to ensure that TLR is no threat to TSP or anyone else I am willing to offer a TLR staff position with all neccessary moderator rights to deal with upcoming posts which you see troublesome.
However, Id like to get at least the chance to deal with something like what happened a few days ago before its been taken reason for blames. Sure between 2am where the post (with that weird joke) appeared and 2pm where I dealt with it were 12 hours time, but actually i tend to sleep and then go to work before can take care of such issues.
I am willing to trust you that troubles for TLR, SWAT or FLC are also getting kept on distance.

5. I do not expect to get involved at TSP nor will I demand anything like that. I was away from there and still survived. Even that the use of certain software is not allowed to use is something I can accept. I just do not wish that members of my sites or members of sites that are on good terms with us have any disadvantages or getting treated differently at TSP.

6. As for the ddos stuff. TLR is not involved and azza is not on our forum (eventhough he would be allowed to as I have the deal with him that he can visit TLR as long he does not cause troubles). TLR and the SWAT Portal are mainly secure from such attacks (I know that as azza attacks in 2010 failed).
It is very likely that he is still behind the attacks against TSP as w0dk4 somewhen has become his main target. That is all I know about this topic.


Sorry for the long post but if we want to resolve something we should talk about the real problems and not just about banalities that are probably just result of the misery.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 10:50 am 
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Talk about putting the past behind us, OP...

I'll address these in reverse since the last ones are easier.

6) I don't think anybody suspected you to actually be linked to the DDOS'ing. w0dk4 made a joke about the joke on TLR.org and things made a turn for the worse from that point onwards.

4-5) We all understand timezone issues and such, but I'd merely point out that you haven't actually done anything about it. "we got rid of that dark episode at TLR" doesn't really sound to me like "Don't say that, it's not funny, you've been warned".

3) Yes, FL communities are equal. None is worth less than the others. That does not however mean that we will absolve banned people. DvDMan and Nova are the two sole people we have banned and they have been banned for breaking forum rules. As such, they will stay outlaws on TSP. Do not generalize. The word "outlaw" was ONLY used when refering to DvD, not ANYBODY else. You're doing the community a disservice by painting the matter in the most antagonizing way possible. Drop it.

As for "fanatic"... Did any member of the staff actually say such a thing? No? Oh wait! People can have opinions that differ from the official stance! We're not all minions following the hive mind's exact thoughts! If such things offend you, and I'd say most of the time they're done in jest (like that ddos joke you didn't seem to have problems with), we'll tell people to take it down a notch.

2) I'm all for harmonizing community bars. We'd just need to agree on a setup and code backend for it.

1) This is your big issue right? I'll be blunt: what the hell are you asking? From what I can tell, you're unhappy because TLR.org doesn't have much content beyond the old archives. I'm sorry to hear that, but we won't force our members to link to your site just because you have nothing to show. That's your job to fix. We didn't integrate the old posts and we honestly don't link to them all that much since a lot of the data is outdated. We built the site up with work, blood and sweat. Nearly all topics on TSP are original content, not content generated from or thanks to the archives as you imply (in fact, the archives went up late in the site's history, we already had a lot of members and posts at that time). If you have a hard time generating your own content, perhaps it's your problem, not ours. We've been around for a few years now and we've done our best to stop people from leaving the community after the TLR fiasco, so it's no wonder we have posts. The new TLR.org site is much younger, give it some time to grow.

So really, if #1 is your big stopping point, I don't see any resolution possible. We don't dictate what our users must do, and we won't start doing that. Work your ass off to make TLR.org better, and we'll help you if you so desire, but not by funelling people to your site forcibly.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:12 am 
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yes #1 is the big stopping point + the recent news about the TLR domain.

talking about peace and resolving things and now this...
that is pretty much like a slap in the face


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 11:38 am 
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It'd be quite easy to see how many references are made to the archive within the content of posts at TSP, and likewise within logs to the archives (minus spiders obviously).
I honestly do not think they bring in as much as people assume... or if they do, those people aren't posting ;)

As for domain names - why it is a slap in the face? Nothing has changed at your end (same domains/site).
I said it before, and I'll say it again. Domain names may have a certain "value" due to existing knowledge - but good administration, content and more is what makes a site.
Since emails were bulk sent to members from tlr.org it would indicate that "returning members" are done, dusted, and left - how many did you see? A handful.

So honestly, it should make zero odds or changes.


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:04 pm 
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Didnt AzzA give you the TLR.org domain? When has AzzA ever been a TLR admin? (afaik he created TLR.org but as you precisely said, this does not make him an owner of TLR)


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:08 pm 
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we have nothing to discuss anymore


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:17 pm 
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I'm sad to hear that. I thought you would've been happy to hear we've managed to snatch back the domain to stop it from falling prey to spammers and link farms...


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:38 pm 
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Quote:
domain: the-starport.com
created: 07-Jun-2011


Interesting Op. Should we now get swat-portal.org?

Just kidding :D


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 Post subject: Re: An open Invitation to the Staff of TSP and TLR
 Post Posted: Fri Jun 10, 2011 12:48 pm 
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Quote:
domain: the-starport.com
created: 07-Jun-2011


Since the registered owner is the same as both Swat-portal.com and lancersreactor.org - the date itself (3 days prior) speaks volumes considering you've shown you had no fore warning of Lancersreactor.com being brought back to the community.

Care to explain that Op? 8)

One side were generously gifted the domain through good intentions to return it to a community - whilst another person is registering same domain alternatives of existing sites for...what purpose exactly? :roll:
So what was your plan with that move Op? Don't try to say it's anything to do with Lancersreactor.com - you clearly had no knowledge of that in advance :roll:


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